Newgrounds.com — Everything, By Everyone.

Since you are all so bad at arguing, trolling, or whatever it is you do "putzing around" with your spare 72 hours of the week, I figured I'd put together a helpful lesson on what you're all doing wrong. Enjoy!

Tu Quoque: a Latin term meaning "you also" or "you're another". A logical fallacy where one attempts to discredit another's opinion or argument by turning the argument on them. This is an example of Red Herring - whether or not the accuser is guilty of the critique, it is irrelevant to the truth of the matter.

Ad Hominem: Latin for "argument to the man". Attempt to discredit an argument by attacking the one who proposed it. A common practice of the fallacy is to accuse someone of being a hypocrite in an attempt to invalidate their argument. In other words, being a hypocrite does not make them wrong.

Straw Man: A logical fallacy that occurs when a person ignores another's actual position and instead substitues a distorted or made up version of it to attempt to prove them wrong.

The bottom line: At the end of the day, your and my opinions are worthless beyond ourselves. Their significance to others, however, is created solely by what reaction they receive. Even if I had ever claimed to be anything that people say I have ("original"), arguments against them serve no purpose other than to make fools of the accusers. You invalidate yourself and unconciously counter your own argument simply through acknowledgment. Essentially, you create a fantasy image of who you think you're speaking to, then proceed to attack it. In other words, you are arguing with yourself.

on newgrounds.

"All humans are hypocrites; the biggest hypocrite of all is the one who claims to detest hypocrisy." - Peter Wastholm

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The People Have Spoken

110 Comments

Jul. 12, 2009 | 3:24 PM Incognitus says:

Zzzzzz...

Jul. 12, 2009 | 3:24 PM Lagamuffin says:

You're a faggot.

Jul. 12, 2009 | 3:25 PM warugu says:

I am not THAT bored that i'd read this

Jul. 12, 2009 | 3:25 PM crazincraz says:

ROFLCOPTER FAIL

Jul. 12, 2009 | 3:28 PM Sausau says:

What you just wrote is simply too hard for most of the Newgrounds audience, I'd say around 98% can't understand a word you just said. However, this is a very nice argument.

Jul. 12, 2009 | 3:29 PM Keshicus says:

wow shut up

ctrl v much?

Jul. 12, 2009 | 3:32 PM Wakman111 says:

BA DUM TISH!

Jul. 12, 2009 | 3:33 PM biIIgates says:

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Jul. 12, 2009 | 3:35 PM PiGPEN says:

no u

Jul. 12, 2009 | 3:35 PM Ripperon says:

i have to agree with the sarsau guy on this one, as it has been mentioned in multiple random flashes, most of newgrounds is 13 year old teens looking for something to do, meaning that everyone of the troll faggots on this post have yet to have their balls drop, so thank you for the meaningless, but interesting post you have here, people just need to get a sense of fucking humor. or go back to school.

Jul. 12, 2009 | 3:35 PM chriswc30 says:

when are you going to male a good cartoon about video games?

Jul. 12, 2009 | 3:39 PM Jonas says:

God damn, that picture is over used. Ah well.

Did your formatting break or something, because the 'on newgrounds.' seems like a complete fragment.

Jul. 12, 2009 | 3:40 PM CrabPope says:

Rollerscates ftw amiright?

Jul. 12, 2009 | 4:05 PM Teshla says:

Thats why discussions in public are absolutley useless. Face to face by a cup of tea without anyone around, thats how I like it. You and the oponent are both not afraid to loose as there will be no humiliation and so you can share opinions with proper arguments and get at least somewhat closer to a common opinion or even devise a new one through the discussion.

Jul. 12, 2009 | 4:11 PM mrpibbs1 says:

What

Jul. 12, 2009 | 4:16 PM Kyaztro says:

That expression "At the end of the day" is not in good taste.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=48HUdz oKiPA

Jul. 12, 2009 | 4:17 PM Niloc14 says:

Good arguement. To bad you can't change their minds. You can tell by all the comments, they're all jackasses. =B

Jul. 12, 2009 | 4:19 PM bagarinator says:

"A helpful lesson" alright... so you say your "devoted fans" create fantasy images of who they think... Yeah, I understand what you say, but I don't agree with it... I'd say: You know whats bullshit? THIS is bullshit!
btw, ROLFMAO @ PiGPENS comment xD

Jul. 12, 2009 | 4:21 PM MisterOdin says:

Man, you forgot Ad Hoc Ergo Propter Hoc. (translated, after this therefore because of this) The simple confusion of creating a cause and effect pairing from to events that don't, in all actuality, have any relation, such as how some people believe they pass a test because of a luck rabbits foot that they wear. Just thought you could use some assistance, judging from a majority of the responses. Good luck getting your point across to these people, god knows it's an arduous task.

Jul. 12, 2009 | 4:22 PM VidGameDude says:

i respect you for this quote---v

"All humans are hypocrites; the biggest hypocrite of all is the one who claims to detest hypocrisy." - Peter Wastholm

l8s...

Jul. 12, 2009 | 4:24 PM PBass says:

How appropriate, you fight like a cow.

Jul. 12, 2009 | 4:24 PM HLG says:

replies to this newspost only further deepen the truth

Jul. 12, 2009 | 4:30 PM AccousticCowbell says:

This isn't a cartoon, so I don't care.

Jul. 12, 2009 | 4:37 PM mo4form says:

I'm a pseudo-intellectual faggot and I would love to share my own perception of who you are and what are you doing, then state it as a fact. A straight-up shit-pie from Copypasta land.

"Round up my huge self-glorifying cake of linguistic bullshit with a sweet-ass irrelevant philosophical quote about [insert whining subject here] and we have an rtil post!"

Jul. 12, 2009 | 4:39 PM TheDaveAngle says:

Go make some Flash, I like your talent, not your personality.

Jul. 12, 2009 | 4:50 PM Sonucais says:

I would never understand why rtil cares about fail trolling kids.

Jul. 12, 2009 | 4:51 PM Oney says:

i am devoted fan

Jul. 12, 2009 | 4:55 PM Sheepiez says:

I love you.

Jul. 12, 2009 | 4:55 PM Starogre says:

i think we need a lesson in STARTING an argument

Jul. 12, 2009 | 4:56 PM Bismarck117 says:

Wellll... On one side, it is good to see that you have some culture, now, if you would use that for the good of humanity, we would all live in a bether world... Or not, I dont fell targeted by this poste so, keep up the good work! (In animation to if possible)

Jul. 12, 2009 | 4:56 PM BiffTheTimid says:

Opinions are like assholes. Everyone has one, but no one likes getting shit on their dick.

Jul. 12, 2009 | 5:02 PM RedMongoose says:

forst post

Jul. 12, 2009 | 5:21 PM jinxworld70 says:

See.

You use fancy made up logic to try to act like a little smart ass.

rtil, you're a great flash artist, but you sure are a whiny son of a bitch.

Jul. 12, 2009 | 5:27 PM Anigen says:

jeez rtil a lot of people respond to your newsposts

...with rage

Jul. 12, 2009 | 5:33 PM P0wer-W1thin says:

As a fan, its only your opinion lol

Jul. 12, 2009 | 5:34 PM lenkobiscuit says:

hollywood squares

Jul. 12, 2009 | 5:47 PM Balvuc says:

Or maybe that was hypocrisy itself.

Jul. 12, 2009 | 5:48 PM Quarl says:

Ignorance is bliss. Ask a racist?

Jul. 12, 2009 | 5:53 PM RobHalford says:

i respect you for this quote---v
"Hey did you see the Wizcon pics?
im the kid with shortcut blond hair and #76 shirt and the grey newgrounds shirt
i feel so special....."
l8s...

Jul. 12, 2009 | 5:58 PM CAPTAIN-COW says:

internet... serious business.

Jul. 12, 2009 | 6:07 PM RYNOL says:

But I'm not a devoted fan. Just a guy who sees your work now and then. What's that called?

Jul. 12, 2009 | 6:14 PM JustaVoter says:

good shit

Jul. 12, 2009 | 6:19 PM JSeed says:

whos alt is vidgamedude i refuse to believe that account is real

Jul. 12, 2009 | 6:22 PM Caesura says:

"To argue with a man who has renounced the use and authority of reason is like administering medicine to the dead." - Thomas Paine

Jul. 12, 2009 | 6:26 PM shadowlego says:

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w00t w00t w00t w00t w00t w00t w00t w00t w00t w00t w00t w00t w00t w00t w00t w00t
w00t w00t w00t w00t w00t w00t w00t w00t w00t w00t w00t w00t w00t w00t w00t w00t
w00t w00t w00t w00t w00t w00t w00t w00t w00t w00t w00t w00t w00t w00t w00t w00t
w00t w00t w00t w00t w00t w00t w00t w00t w00t w00t w00t w00t w00t w00t w00t w00t
w00t w00t w00t w00t w00t w00t w00t w00t w00t w00t w00t w00t w00t w00t w00t w00t
w00t w00t w00t w00t w00t w00t w00t w00t w00t w00t w00t w00t w00t w00t w00t w00t
w00t w00t w00t w00t w00t w00t w00t w00t w00t w00t w00t w00t w00t w00t w00t w00t

Jul. 12, 2009 | 6:29 PM John-Verideo says:

A pointless banter that tries to make a point a a website that primes itself on pointlessness? This is either very stupid... or very clever. A winner is you.

Jul. 12, 2009 | 6:31 PM Starogre says:

@JSeed

we are all wondering the same thing

Jul. 12, 2009 | 6:33 PM captainwillies says:

thanks. i always wondered what a strawman was.

Jul. 12, 2009 | 6:40 PM PaperBat says:

Glad you picked something as useful to talk about as economics

Jul. 12, 2009 | 6:40 PM AndevOriz35 says:

thats pretty damn hardcore(even thou i didnt know what u said)......gayrobot

Jul. 12, 2009 | 6:53 PM IntangibleHands says:

Less time babbling, more time animating.

Jul. 12, 2009 | 6:56 PM DougApproved says:

Although I am not proud of it, I would be lying to myself and everyone around me if I said I wasent a hypocrite. I fully understand where you are coming from with this, and I respect your opinion, for I to share this opinion. I am not saying I wouldn't respect your opinion if I didn't share it, I just respect it a litle bit more lol.

Jul. 12, 2009 | 7:04 PM Homocidicle says:

rtil, I can't argue with that nose.

Jul. 12, 2009 | 7:04 PM someplaceelse says:

Good point.

Jul. 12, 2009 | 7:06 PM xXxAlecxXx says:

Ryan The Internet legend

Jul. 12, 2009 | 7:06 PM xXxAlecxXx says:

Ryan The Internet legend Ryan The Internet legend Ryan The Internet legend Ryan The Internet legend Ryan The Internet legend Ryan The Internet legend Ryan The Internet legend Ryan The Internet legend Ryan The Internet legend Ryan The Internet legend Ryan The Internet legend Ryan The Internet legend Ryan The Internet legend Ryan The Internet legend Ryan The Internet legend Ryan The Internet legend Ryan The Internet legend Ryan The Internet legend Ryan The Internet legend Ryan The Internet legend Ryan The Internet legend Ryan The Internet legend Ryan The Internet legend Ryan The Internet legend Ryan The Internet legend Ryan The Internet legend Ryan The Internet legend Ryan The Internet legend Ryan The Internet legend Ryan The Internet legend Ryan The Internet legend Ryan The Internet legend Ryan The Internet legend Ryan The Internet legend Ryan The Internet legend Ryan The Internet legend Ryan The Internet legend Ryan The Internet legend Ryan The Internet legend Ryan The Internet legend Ryan The Internet legend Ryan The Internet legend Ryan The Internet legend Ryan The Internet legend Ryan The Internet legend Ryan The Internet legend Ryan The Internet legend Ryan The Internet legend Ryan The Internet legend Ryan The Internet legend Ryan The Internet legend Ryan The Internet legend

Jul. 12, 2009 | 7:10 PM lordlubu21 says:

Good point, but that makes it seem like argument based forums, Particularly political ones for example become null and void...

Jul. 12, 2009 | 7:15 PM Homocidicle says:

I love the adorible little headshot of you at the bottom.

Jul. 12, 2009 | 7:15 PM Nousentre says:

To reply to this post makes me a hypocrite just for answering your distress call, while at the same time, you reading all our posts from the fellow Newgrounds community makes you just as equal a hypocrite. Why, you might ask? Why would you come back to see your very own post if only to admire the argument you made and react to everyone's opinion? It's funny to see how you, of all people rtil, want to anticipate the human mind, and yet you can't even decipher your own? If it makes you feel any better, at least you had the sak to say what was on your mind, and that's something not every human has. But hey, we all have to start somewhere.

PS: I'm the biggest hypocritical cynic your all ever going to meet; if you can't deal with that, go chew Big Red or something. I don't need to prove my point anymore.

Jul. 12, 2009 | 7:31 PM Soullink says:

Alas, one's history cannot be helped. While you have put forth valid and truthful pieces of information, you have to understand that previous actions nullify what you are trying to convey. Thus, even this harmless and correctly researched informative news post is still being viewed as hostile from the masses. It is most unfortunate. As I have said before. You show great potential for many things, yet you insist on squandering it simply to prove a point most people cannot understand or do not want to hear. By the way, Philosophy 101 was an easy class. I mean, ridiculously easy. But that doesn't mean everyone passed. Ya know? lol

Jul. 12, 2009 | 7:37 PM VidGameDude says:

@RobHalford

do you have a problem with me like zekeyspacey?

if so please submit it in writing and will be read over eventually if time has not already come to a halt.

Jul. 12, 2009 | 7:39 PM VidGameDude says:

@Jseed

this is an original account.

and for some reason im gaining attention from you back alley-ers.....very strange.

Jul. 12, 2009 | 7:59 PM MrBigBone says:

I am 12 years old, and what is this?

Jul. 12, 2009 | 8:05 PM thantounderscore says:

The problem with claiming that something is a Tu Quoque fallacy is that doing so is generally a misunderstanding of the claims made. That is, no one ever says, "X is wrong, You're doing X, therefore you are wrong."

Instead, the argument generally goes thusly:
1. You present an argument where the conclusion is that X is wrong
2. You do X anyway
3. (2) You obviously don't believe that X is wrong
4. (3) You obviously don't believe that the argument you presented is strong/valid (depending on the type of argument)
5. (1,4) You must believe that the argument that you presented is somehow flawed, whether it is invalid/weak, or the premises are false or otherwise unreasonable

If you are speaking to someone and claim something that you obviously believe is false, then anyone listening to you really has no reason to believe it either.

An argument is only fallacious as Ad Hominem if the attack is irrelevant to the argument. When someone claims to have some sort of talent or to have dome something special, and another responds with an argument that he/she does not or has not, that is not Ad Hominem, because it is directly relevant to the comment made. So, for example, if a person claims to be original or to have made original content, and another argues that that person is unoriginal and has never made original content, that argument is no fallaciously Ad Hominem, because it relates directly to the claim made.

Also, I think it's great that you personify yourself in the 2nd person. You create a fantasy image of who you think you're speaking to (someone who doesn't understand logic or proper argumentation), then proceed to attack it.

Jul. 12, 2009 | 8:19 PM savage011 says:

*waits for rtil to respond to every comment and then claims he has a life

Jul. 12, 2009 | 8:22 PM ShadowBoyX says:

Clever way of putting it. I can see you used psychology along with other research for your arguement, therefore giving it more meaning. I respect that. Of course the many comments you have received are mostly from users who are:
. Objecting to your arguement and try to expose the contradictions in it, in the hopes of foiling you.
. Those who have sworn their undying love to NG and would no doubt fight to the very death against.
. Those who basically, don't take your post seriously and leave an immature, offensive comment on your post (eg. Noob, faggot).

I probably belong near the first group. No doubt you'll get similar comments from the same groups or from different groups. I suppose we'll see.

Jul. 12, 2009 | 8:39 PM HannibalofCarthage says:

Randomly clicked on your name, don't know much about you, but the words you've written are appreciated. Edumacate more people, please. ;)

Jul. 12, 2009 | 8:40 PM Kajenx says:

Calling out hypocrisy can invalidate a moral or ethical argument, though, when the hypocrite is using him/herself as an example. John Stuart does this a lot for news media and politicians.

"Watch Fox news, because we're fair and balanced." This implies other stations aren't.

Jul. 12, 2009 | 9:11 PM SSJ1SonGokou says:

So, no pizza tonight?

Jul. 12, 2009 | 9:25 PM cantflyman says:

Daffy Duck better have a joke when I get back.

Jul. 12, 2009 | 9:39 PM SardonicSamurai says:

I talk to myself all the time. I get along with myself rather well though. I by myself little treats if I'm exceptionally good to myself.

Jul. 12, 2009 | 9:51 PM DarkShadow8181 says:

Hows the next metropolis circuit coming along?

Jul. 12, 2009 | 9:52 PM MrScriblam says:

i am gonna be the loser here and say something neutral
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
ok

Jul. 12, 2009 | 9:59 PM FrozenFire says:

Cool story bro

Jul. 12, 2009 | 10:17 PM BlackTarCzar says:

knock knock

open up the door for lunch

with the non stop pop pop of falcon punch

Jul. 12, 2009 | 10:19 PM AronKong says:

3 words. White Honkey N****r.

Jul. 12, 2009 | 10:26 PM Nersop says:

Meh. Yay for general dramafag attention whoring.

Jul. 12, 2009 | 10:39 PM KupaMan says:

Why is every comment to this either a douche-bag response, or somebody trying to sound smart?

Jul. 12, 2009 | 10:44 PM ItsThatOneGuy says:

Because you touch yourself at night.

Jul. 12, 2009 | 11:10 PM Pendragon92 says:

Despite feeling like all your actions are concentrated douchery I have to agree with your post.... God I hope you c/ped this because agreeing with you is a depressing feeling =\

Jul. 12, 2009 | 11:45 PM omegared says:

I detest hypocrisy. and Peter Wastholm can suck my dick. I'd fuck his mom in the butt though

Jul. 12, 2009 | 11:46 PM omegared says:

A pup named Scooby Doo makes so much sense now! Fred Jr always thought the culpret was RED HERRING!

Jul. 12, 2009 | 11:49 PM Crash-and-burn31 says:

amen to that

goddamn rtil your page is a magnet for faggots who try to act hardcore

Jul. 12, 2009 | 11:54 PM HeadOn says:

I'm not devoted I just like letting people know what's on my Alt mind. Is that so hypocritical?

Jul. 13, 2009 | 12:20 AM Ukinojoe says:

BURBLE DURBLE BAAAAAHHH HEWLP IM DROWNING BUB BLUB BLUB BURBLE GURBLE DURB DURBLE DURB...

Jul. 13, 2009 | 12:26 AM Starogre says:

people are only posting because usually he responds to every comment and they want to know whether or not what they said was hilariously hilarious by rtil's always hilarious one liners

Jul. 13, 2009 | 12:26 AM Starogre says:

and since i'm a hypocrite i'm still posting here ladeeda

Jul. 13, 2009 | 12:29 AM x-factor11 says:

ARE TEE EYE EL
MASTER PHILOSOPHIZER

Jul. 13, 2009 | 12:41 AM Starogre says:

HAS RTIL LEFT HIS DEVOTED FANS IN THE DUST? WILL RTIL EVER RETURN TO NEWGROUNDS AGAIN? AND HAVE HIS ARGUMENTS FINALLY BEEN DEPLETED AT LAST? FIND OUT ON THE NEXT EPISODE OF

Jul. 13, 2009 | 12:47 AM JonBro says:

I tried reading that. What I got out of it was "nothing you do matters so stop trying" though I'm going to assume I misread it and continue on with my life.

Jul. 13, 2009 | 1:03 AM SoulMaster71 says:

I agree that it's an extremely useless and stupid thing to do, but hey, completely and totally inconsequential works both ways, and other than the time-wasting it does no harm, right?

Jul. 13, 2009 | 1:14 AM JSeed says:

Listen to the clams gurgle in the bucket, Plank

Jul. 13, 2009 | 1:50 AM Spite says:

Wanna fight about it?

Jul. 13, 2009 | 1:57 AM AlmightyHans says:

Nah, you didn't forget to tell a joke :P

Jul. 13, 2009 | 1:59 AM tjanation2 says:

no daffy the joke is above

Jul. 13, 2009 | 2:20 AM Knockjobs says:

So...... rtil, I was wondering if you were free this saturday? We could, you know... go get drinks or something like that... I mean if thats what you want to do.. because if not we could just do something a little more casual like maybe go out for coffee... starbucks? I just want to get to know you... I hope someday we can be really close like you and your brother are... Do you think we could be? Oh, do you rtil?...

PS: Pick me up at 6:15 xoxo <3

Jul. 13, 2009 | 4:36 AM TheBoogley says:

so, what you're saying is a really fancy version of "takes one to know one"?

Jul. 13, 2009 | 4:55 AM RubberNinja says:

Hey I haven't been around.

Did I miss something?

Jul. 13, 2009 | 7:43 AM Slick says:

I didn't want to play Journey of Reemus, but they made me :c With the large banners and countless plugs, it made me feel wrong...

Jul. 13, 2009 | 7:55 AM HiddenLink says:

avtually, red herring is a phrase that means that someone is falsely accused, usually in a mystery/detective story.

Jul. 13, 2009 | 7:56 AM knuxandshadowrule says:

to be honest man, none of this is helping. People on Newgrounds are what they are, and nothing changes that. General society is the same way. We're all too far down the drain to try and climb back out. We did this to ourselves, and I suppose this comment I've written doesn't help either. Stating the obvious is just something that must be done, for no good reason.

Jul. 13, 2009 | 8:05 AM bid says:

Interesting, and I do tend to agree with you. Our opinions are worthless to others and only have "meaning" to ourselves due to the fact that only we fully understand why we think that way. If a person disagree's with us on opinion (this is good/this is bad) then it is very hard to change their mind, or impossible (depending on the person). The only times a persons veiw on a subject will change is when the subject is more fact based than opinonaited.

Jul. 13, 2009 | 8:24 AM Dereliction says:

You do realize that Newgrounds isn't the best place to rebuke these people. Well, you're correct anyway.

Jul. 13, 2009 | 8:38 AM S-K says:

TL;DR version ignoring someone makes their opinions worthless no matter what they are? This may be the smartest thing I've ever read by rtil! But why are you wasting it on mostly 13 year olds? Also as already said, less false drama moar doing what you do best I say =P

Jul. 14, 2009 | 8:46 PM mo4form says:

U MITE MAIK SENSE BUT THATS JUST UR OPINION OMG
If someone is contradicting themselves, that does make them wrong. Even by their standards. Like vegans/conservatives/straighedge punks/junkies/preachers for an example.
An argument is not a quarrel. Go watch re-runs of Scrubs, zipperhead.

Jul. 17, 2009 | 11:13 AM bob says:

good read.

Jul. 18, 2009 | 5:45 PM Elmhurst676 says:

I'm religious.

OoOooOooOooh! Fear me!

Ok, I'm kidding, I'm kidding.

Why do you hate this Mindchamber chap so much?

Jul. 18, 2009 | 11:09 PM FightingSeraph says:

I think you must have heard of the Skeptic Wiki. Plus, I would like to see another Project Freetown cartoon.

Jul. 21, 2009 | 12:37 AM Etackett2010 says:

"your and my opinions are worthless beyond ourselves."

true

Oct. 7, 2009 | 12:16 AM tomocles says:

I think the breadth of your argument is pretty well corrupted by your own seeming contempt for newgrounds in itself. If you go into the general section of the site, you are bound to find idiots. I mean, who the hell talks about stuff in general on a site based around flash? Thats what myspace, facebook, and actual general chat forums are for. But if you go beyond that shithole and into the actual areas that matter like the flash, programming, and art sections (among others), then you reach into the actual intelligence and progress that is to be had in Newgrounds. Sure there are idiots and people who know nothing, but that is to be expected in such a site, and if you look only at those threads that are posted by those genuinely interested in their inquiries or discussions, you will find people who are dedicated to furthering themselves and/or the community.

The problem with the argument you present is that you have an instant contempt for the reader, and thus stifle the meaning both in how you wrote it and in the defensiveness the reader will inevitably take against you. If you would instead present what you are trying to tell the reader in a more reasonable way, such as talking ABOUT those who do these things, rather than assuming the reader has, you will lead the person to think more on the issue you speak of than the obvious aggression you show toward them.

If you feel all the readers HAVE done these things, then I am obligated to say that when everyone else is crazy, its only you.